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Wednesday, March 21, 2007

Allan Bartlett vs Luis Rodriguez Debate Thread On Illegal Immigration

Luis Rodriguez from the OC blog Orange Juice has accepted to debate me on illegal immigration here at Powder Blue Report. The only rule is that we are to be civil to each other and debate the merits of our illegal immigration fiasco in this country. I will pretend that I have never read anything Luis has previously written on this issue and let him spell out his beliefs of what he thinks some solutions should be. He has asked me when I cite numbers, to give where they came from. This is fine with me. ICE has plenty of stats on this problem I'm sure.


  • At 12:03 PM, Blogger Luis said…

    As recommended by some of my readers at the Orange Juice, would you also be willing to take half the debate over to the Juice?

  • At 12:07 PM, Blogger Luis said…

    One more thought Allan, is there a beginning and an end? We surely can debate this until the end of time, so perhaps a timeline would be appropriate.

  • At 12:13 PM, Blogger Allan Bartlett said…

    That is fine with me having half of it over at OJ. As far as a timeline, how about we shoot for an end to it by Sunday night. That gives both of us time to respond to each others questions & assertions & allowing for time to be away from the computer for various reasons. I'm flexible on this.

  • At 1:42 PM, Blogger Allan Bartlett said…

    Feel free Luis to go ahead and make an opening statement. If you could to for me and my readers benefit Luis, could give maybe a little bit about your background i.e where you grew up, age, occupation, and anything else you think may be helpful for us to know you better.

  • At 2:23 PM, Blogger Luis said…

    Absolutely Allan,
    First off, I was born and raised in Santa Ana. I attended all public schools (fremont Elementary, Spurgeon Intermediate, and Santa Ana High School). I attended Chapman University and received a BS in Business Administration and Economics. I then attended MIT on a scholarship via a teacher grant.
    I started teaching at Santa Ana High School from 2001-2005 when I resigned to be involved in the Mortgage industry. While a teacher, I was the Head Tennis Coach for both girls and boys, was the advisor to the Youth and Government program, an advisor to the Puente Program, and Avid Program. While there I completed my Master's program at National University in Education.
    As far as my age, I graduated from Santa Ana High School in 1996, I will let your readers do the math.
    I will follow with my opening statement, as soon as I get a chance.

  • At 2:43 PM, Blogger Allan Bartlett said…

    You weren't by any chance Luis part of the MIT Blackjack card counting crew that went around to different casinos and won hundreds of thousands of dollars were you? Just curious. If not, did you know any of the guys and gals that did this? I read Ben Mezrich's book about that and I have fascinated how they pulled it off. Thanks for that short bio. I will have mine posted later when I get home from the office.

  • At 3:03 PM, Blogger Luis said…

    Thats funny, I did hear about them, but never really met any of them. They were truly some whiz kids.

  • At 4:10 PM, Blogger Allan Bartlett said…

    I was born in Arcadia,CA in 1969. My family moved to Irvine in 1971, the year the city incorporated. I went to private schools until after high school. I went to Our Lady Queen of Angels in Newport Beach until eighth grade and then it was on to Mater Dei HS(class of 1988). After MD, I was off to Long Beach St. I dropped out after my third year and have been in the financial industry ever since. I'm currently a federally licensed futures broker and loving every minute of it(except for three weeks ago during the market meltdown!). I'm married, no kids yet, have two sisters(one of whom was just diagnosed with cancer[more on this later]), still live in Irvine, and very passionate about trying to make this a better country.

  • At 4:16 PM, Blogger Luis said…

    It looks like we come from significant backgrounds. This should be interesting...

  • At 4:40 PM, Blogger Dan Chmielewski said…

    Allan -- I'm sorry to read about your sister's condition. I hopeshe has a positive outcome.

  • At 4:46 PM, Blogger Allan Bartlett said…

    Thanks for the concern Dan. We're pretty sure it's Hodgkins Lymphoma, but she's having more tests to confirm it. If it is Hodgkins, it is a very curable form of cancer according to my sister and from everything I've read and heard. My sister is a very strong person and we're all optimistic that she is going to get cured. Thoughts and prayers are appreciated.

  • At 5:12 PM, Blogger Dan Chmielewski said…

    Thoughts and prayers offered. Not just for her but your whole family.

  • At 6:06 PM, Blogger Luis said…

    Okay Allan I will start with my opening remarks, they will be quick. But first I too would like to offer you my thoughts and prayers regarding your family.

    As far as immigration and open borders, I am not sure I am in favor of complete open orders, as exists in the European Union, but I certainly believe should be allowed to travel where they please.
    First off it is important to understand terminology. The term "illegal" I find offensive simply because a person can not be illegal, only an action. Thus a person can cross illegally, but that person would not be an illegal. In any event, an Undocumented Immigrant as per our definition is a person who crosses a border without the proper documentation. This is the topic of debate.
    I believe the U.S. currently contradicts its opinion regarding these undocumented immigrants due to the pressure they receive from certain groups. This pressure causes our Govt. to pretend to enforce a "law" they truly have no desire in doing so. The reason being, immigrants (cheap labor) allow for economic growth the U.S. can not have otherwise due to its limited population growth. Immigration laws, I believe are set up only to provide a somwhat facade to constituents wishing to remove these group of people from the U.S. so they do a half hazard job of controlling it.
    My belief is President Bush is right on in believing a guest worker program would be the solution, not because it is called a guest worker program but rather because he is trying to name what is already a natural process, supply and demand. He is looking to supply the demand current existing in specific fields, such as agricultural, and other unskilled labor fields.
    I believe jobs in the U.S. are not in short supply, and there are not enough U.S. born workers, or documented immigrants to fill those jobs. Additionally, the line for "legalizing" themselves in countries such as Mexico are at ridiculous levels, and therefore can not be done.
    I'll start with that and add more as we continue to debate.

  • At 8:08 PM, Blogger Allan Bartlett said…

    I will go ahead and give an opening statement now. I believe that the issue of illegal immigration is the most important policy issue in the United States today. Numerous public opinion polls verify this. For far to long our government policy makers have given a wink and a nod to all the illegal activity happening surrounding this issue and people are just fed up. We were told back in 1986 when the last amnesty was handed out that once this happened there would be strong enforcement measures acted upon. We were lied to. Nothing has really happened on the enforcement front for the last twenty years. There's been lots of lip service, but little action. How on God's green Earth are we supposed to believe anything the open border crowd tells us. If we give amnesty to the 20 million or so illegal immigrants here currently(according to a Bear Stearns report) or the 12 million figure by ICE, it will absolutely send the wrong signal to people wanting to come here that America doesn't care about its own citizens. A Heritage Foundation & Claremont Institute study on family reunification ramifications state that if amnesty is given out and all extended members of newly minted citizens are allowed to bring these extended family members into the country ahead of people already waiting in line, this number will reach 200 million people from Latin American countries in the next thirty years. How anyone can reasonably claim that this is a good idea for this country is beyond my comprehension, but that's why we're having this debate.

    I think most people will agree that we live in the greatest nation in the world. There are roughly 6 billion people living on this Earth by a rough estimate. Americans are one of the most giving people in the world. However it is not our responsibility to take care of these six billion people. A lot of them would like to emigrate here legally, but we have limits on how many people we can reasonably assimilate at one time. A study that came out last year in Mexico stated that roughly half the citizens of Mexico would like to come to the United States. We cannot let this happen becuase our social services are already strained to capacity. Does that make people like myself racist or bigoted to feel this way? Of course it doesn't. All those of us on this side of the issue are asking for is that the laws be enforced, nothing more, nothing less. We don't need any new laws passed. Just enforce the ones currently on the books. When Rome is burning, you don't add more fuel to the fire. If you doubt that Rome is burning, all you have to do is go to any ER, school in LA County, and congested highways/streets. So those are some of my thoughts on this issue to run with.

  • At 9:18 PM, Blogger Agent Orange said…

    This comment has been removed by the author.

  • At 9:39 PM, Blogger Agent Orange said…

    I do not like to interrupt your lovely discussion on the crossing border legality.

    However, I have illegally crossed the Iron Curtain between Yugoslavia and Italy consisting of electric wires and minefields.

    Having said that, I am in the USA legally because after I have crossed I have checked in to the refugee camp in Trieste from which I have been further processed.

    So in order for me to come to USA I had to have a sponsor who was anonymous and pledged to take care of me in the case I would become a burden on the USA government.

    I was also obligated to repay the sponsor all expenses which he incurred by his sponsorship.

    In 1970 I paid about $1,200 which would be equivalent to about $17,000 today.

    So there is obviously a difference in legal and illegal border crossing.

    All emigrants were required to do that and had to wait 2 to 4 years in the refugee cam until they found a sponsor. Some newer found one and spent rest of their lifes in the refuge camp as senior citizens.

    I was lucky because of my Air Force background and CIA interest in it.

    After debriefing, in less than one year I was in the USA.


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